Athlete CEO #028: Can I Have Your Attention | Curt Steinhorst
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We have all experienced moments of being in the zone. A state of deep focus and peak performance.
Unfortunately, those seem to be difficult to string together. Instead, we find ourselves more distracted and exhausted than ever before. It’s time to take back your attention and focus on what matters most.
In this episode of the Athlete CEO podcast, Erik has a conversation with Curt Steinhorst, bestselling author, Forbes columnist and leading expert in cultivating focus and minimizing distraction.
Curt offers the latest neuroscience backed research covering topics like:
How are we wired to pay attention?
How to develop mastery
Why life hacks are good tools but don’t lead to change
The difference between humans and machines and why it will never work for us to try and emulate them
Communicating stories in a way that creates lasting change
The dangers of constantly being told you're awesome - and how to surround yourself with people who will give you helpful and honest feedback
How to determine what matters most
How teams can work to end a culture of distraction
To access the free chapter on the vault in Curt's book Can I Have Your Attention, visit focuswise.com/cihya
+ Read the Transcript
Erik Averill (00:04):
Hey everyone. Welcome back to another edition of the athlete CEO podcast. I am your host, Eric Avril. And today I have a great fun interview with a good friend of mine, someone who I have actually known going on about a decade now, and the topic we're going to talk about could not be more relevant, no matter who you are, but especially for this audience of founders, VC investors and athletes who share this common goal of how do we be high performers? How do we be elite words like mastery and craftsmanship? We know that one of the key ingredients to that is our focus and our attention. And so today we have the opportunity to have a conversation with Kurt Stein, horse, who happens to be a bestselling author. He is also a contributor for the Forbes leadership, call them on a regular basis and a keynote speaker and founder of focus wise and focus wise is a consulting company that equips organizations to overcome the distinct challenges of the constantly connected workplace.
Erik Averill (01:13):
I think we can all re relate to that of a time that we know that it's never been more important to reduce distractions and focus our attention and so super excited. And with that Kurt, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me on air. I'm excited to be here. I have been very excited for this conversation for many years, and the reason I've been so excited is a lot of times when somebody is in, you know, so-called expert on a topic. A lot of times I would say it's Monday morning, quarterback ish. It's an intellectual kind of, you know, just sharing their thoughts from it. But for you, you know, you are an actual operator, you're a founder of a company. I would say your, your, the talent very much like an athlete and the fact that you just don't consult on speaking, you are a speaker. And so I know a lot of this advice comes from someone who has a lot of skin in the game. So very excited for our audience on that end, but I'd love for you just to start talking about, you know, what are you up to today? What exactly is focus wise? Let's just start there.
Curt Steinhorst (02:28):
Yeah. Happy to start there, right? At its core, I'm fascinated by what causes people to pay attention to something or not. I'm like, why is it at certain moments I can zoom in and focus and get a lot done. And other times I find myself distracted by you name it from the NFL draft to a funny cat video. And it really that's rooted in, in this unique journey that I have, that, that started with trying to understand both an undergrad and graduate studies, the study of rhetoric, how do we communicate in a way to capture audiences attention and then led me into this career, helping athletes. And, and those were the big platform on how they're communicating to their audiences. And then this other side of the equation, which is when I started my business, that I, I was diagnosed with add as a kid and I had workarounds and strategies around this. But then when I started my own business, it was just all the overwhelming minutia that I couldn't get, find myself getting to. And so I went in search of how to solve my own problem. And eventually more and more people were asking me to share more about what I was seeing across the research and then was able to contribute to it. So today I get to work with organizations and with leaders on how do they capture attention and then even more, how do we think about and drive focused cultures?
Erik Averill (04:01):
What I'm excited to dive into is just something you'd hit on is this really is a culmination of your own experience. And a lot of times what we realize from entrepreneurs or leading experts, right? Very few of them wake up and said, Hey, you know what, when I was 16, I decided I was going to be the leading expert on attention. Right. It's, it's not how it works, but that's what makes it so important. And one of the things that I know has been helpful, reading your book, or being a regular subscriber to, to your newsletter where you rightfully so use video and audio to communicate, which I really appreciate is a lot of times we get a lot of recommendations on, on tactics or habits or, you know, disciplines, which you have no shortage of, but a thing that you point out that I just love so much as you talk a lot about like, really this is a study of human behavior of the way in which we're designed. Can you, can you talk about maybe how you approach trying to help master attention differently than just saying, Hey, Eric, be more disciplined TA you know, put Headspace on and just meditate, you know, can you just share your philosophy?
Curt Steinhorst (05:19):
Yeah. I think that what you just mentioned about do, these are all there. They're functional. They help, they can be really valuable. And, but I think there's some fundamental questions that I have about, or the undergirding assumptions that are not questions, question that ultimately makes sure that none of us actually experienced any levels of success or we don't drive any real results. And so I started when I, when I was struggling to get focused and get work done, even doing the thing I loved I with the place that most people do, which is the life hacking world, right? It's, it's a podcasts that, and books and just, there's no shortage of people who can, can, can teach you how to live efficiently. And, and that's where I went, but really where I had this all I'll never forget. I just had this huge aha this moment that really transformed my life, which was reading a book that called, called the ecology of attention, which no one should ever read. It had to be translated into English, but it, it helped me to realize that so much of this conversation is actually us, as technology is growing. And we blame it for all of our distractions that really were we're modeling performance and our behavior and what we are to attend to, to focus on and how focus should work after what technology does well, like we're aiming to be machines and the wonder why we're failing and not keeping up. Wow. That's
Erik Averill (07:07):
resonates a lot in another podcast. I had heard you say, we really unfortunately undervalue our humanity when we either expect ourselves to operate as like machines or the vice versa, right. Is as we think it's animals, can you, can you talk about the, how are we wired to pay attention? They w what is our default is a created human being. If the answer is like, Hey, we shouldn't be modeling trying to be a computer. What would be the, the organically way we're designed as humans to pay attention?
Curt Steinhorst (07:40):
Yeah. Great question. So there's two systems of attention in the brain, and there's a couple models that we can use to think about this, but the best way to think about it is that that when a new input comes in, it gets processed bottom to up and right to left, meaning the brain sin before the frontal cortex. And this is really important because the two systems of attention serve radically different functions, and it's critical. We understand the value of them. So the basis, most attention you are primarily wired to seek after new and novel stimulus. Meaning if you're in the jungle, the earlier you see a lion, the more likely you are to survive. And so it's really important why this matters is because it doesn't take a lot of energy baseline is to not want to sit in front of a screen and not move all day.
Curt Steinhorst (08:41):
It's not to have a four hour long, deep dive into physics and reading like this. Isn't how we're made to do, made to, to strive. And so the system of attention though, is what we call top-down. And that is the one that says, no, I can choose to focus on this. Despite other options in shiny objects, I can make active decisions about what I'm choosing to focus on. And, and you know, this obviously executive function is what we call this. This is where we, this is where we get to actually dictate where mastery comes out. Like I'm choosing to focus on something. It's not how many hours it's how much I focus on something where we become experts, the deeper we dive in. Now here's the, a couple of areas that I think are really critical, that are missing in both of these cases. Attention is wired to be given to what matters.
Curt Steinhorst (09:44):
It's the selection of what matters among infinite options. So humans, aren't good at focusing whenever we don't know if it matters and, and not just that, but like what we call distraction, that based system of attention, that is how we're wired, is what we could be, framing, call human curiosity. And that's how we learn. That's how we explore. We're wired to explore. We're wired to seek out things that we don't know, and we don't understand, and to go further out, all of which allows us to connect new things, to see the world differently, to be creative, to have strategy, which computers don't do very well at all.
Erik Averill (10:25):
Very, very helpful. A few followup questions on that of, okay. We're, we're designed with this curiosity, which is fantastic. Unfortunately, if we don't know what matters most companies are going to fill our curiosity, right. In this information age, where now very interestingly, we're seeing even information being monetized as entertainment, whether it's masterclass and the valuation that just came up with this of literally education and information as entertainment. Can you talk about the, you know, the focus on master mastery, the focus on how do you determine what matters most to have, how do you cultivate and create a good lens to decipher what to pay attention to is the question.
Curt Steinhorst (11:18):
And perhaps one of the most fundamental questions that we're not asking, and we should, so a few things that I want to just spotlight in what you just mentioned, the monetization of information and learning. Here's the interesting thing. So that's playing into our desire for curiosity, but what it's also failing miserably to understand is that that's not how we learn that that's not what creates mastery. That's actually us aiming to be like machines yet again, in another way that the, the idea that information can be easily digested and create action on that expertise can come through a, that, that, that, that competitive advantage comes through being aware and consuming. All this information is completely absurd. And I know you're a former athlete. I don't think you don't have to talk to any professional athlete to, to know that that's a lie, right? I mean, you spend your whole life. Like, I, we both know Sam Ocho and Sam's a really incredible guy, a good friend. And he was talking to me about how as a defensive in how he'll get out of blocks. And it turns out I didn't know anything about that.
Erik Averill (12:36):
I think it's so good. And it's something, especially so many of us listening to this podcast, like we have some type of athletic background or mastery at a very specific skillset or talent. So for you, like, I know you were on debate. I know it's a skill set to be able to communicate well that it is, it's like how many reps and then is my feedback loop quick enough that I can evaluate to make, you know, adjustments and decision and real time. And this is why the people who own the teams or the general managers or the front office, they are far more, have a lot more books, smarts, and maybe really knowledgeable of, of, you know, the science behind why your arm works the way it does or what Sam's doing with his body. But it's a whole different thing to implement that and do that practice. And so I think it's, it's so good. What, and I, this is kind of varying off of where we went, but stick on the mastery conversation. Cause I know it's a huge importance to this audience who wants to be elite and wants to be great. If you're telling somebody, Hey, you want to master something like, how would you, how would you go about mastering something?
Curt Steinhorst (13:48):
Yeah. And, and, and I also would say there's two challenges to mastery that are in many ways, contrary to one another and hidden, and one aspect or one challenge that we have to be aware of is that we, the way attention works is what you pay attention to. You become interested in and fascinated by. And we can, we can at times zoom in to the point that we're actually losing, like it's familiar. Like I want to be an expert at let's fix something ridiculous. Well, actually you're a baseball player. I love the Texas Rangers. So like, I want to be an expert at like understanding all of the minor league players. And it turns out that that's familiar to me, but that doesn't make me more fluent or have a better understanding of baseball. And, and so we can often zoom so far in that we fail to realize that it's connecting things that are one step outside, like mastery comes through moving steps outside of and connecting into our scope of mastery.
Curt Steinhorst (14:50):
So that would be one area that I would look at and say, if I want to master something, how do I, how do I add value by understanding the things that are not always connected, but can connect and, and in like maybe the perfect really this is my own experience, but when I started, maybe I'm projecting too. But when I started really trying to understand what drives an audience to pay attention, I realized there was just this massive amount of repetitive, same thing being said over and over again, the Toastmaster's world, which is really great advice on speaking, but it's, it was it's woefully, incomplete and outdated. And so there was this like speech coaches everywhere who are all saying the same exact thing. And it turns out that when you take a step outside and say, I want to understand human behavior, I want to understand psychology. I want, wanna understand how technology is shaping, how we communicate. You can actually add an incredible that's where real mastery and expertise comes. Cause you're, you're able to look outside of your space and connect it in
Erik Averill (16:00):
very, very helpful. And how much do you attribute this to like you having to do, having to develop a skill set? I think of, you know, just for the listeners shedding some light on your background that you started an actual agency representing speakers and putting the talent out there that I know you had gone to the, you know, the CEO or the founder of the company and said, Hey, you know, we have some really talented writers, but maybe they don't know how to speak or vice versa. And then ultimately you end up on stage. Can you just talk about the merger of, okay, I do this research and I think I understand it to the, the implementation of what it meant to, to have to stand up there and do it yourself.
Curt Steinhorst (16:52):
Yeah. That's a really, really poignant question and a challenging one. I never, you know, I never expected to be a speaker. And in some ways I fell into that. I, I was fascinated by speaking and wanting to help people. And I did think that occasionally speaking would help me keep my skillset up, which really was, was honed as goofy as it sounds. But you know how this is, I happened to be on my high school debate teacher. We had the number one debate team in the country. Most years I was there and I just had this incredible teacher. I just, I had to go five speeches a week. So I was practicing and practicing and practicing and practicing and being critiqued. And so then when I moved in the professional world, I, I made the pivot to, from being agent, to being a coach. And I ultimately made a bet that I has continued to pay dividends.
Curt Steinhorst (17:49):
And in that was, most people are lazy. Most of them, most people are not lazy. They're not self-directed. And so they're going to take a, if I want to learn to be, if I want to learn to be a professional baseball player or whatever, this is a terrible analogy. Like I'm going to go to the stain book, is everyone and learned about the same way? And so my, in some ways, my add, you made me say, I want to hear different things. I'm a contrarian I wanted to learn from other things. And so I just bet on the fact that, that I could, I could have a competitive advantage and the opportunities would come if my thinking was, was good enough. And so that's really where it started when it jumped into speaking. I think the biggest challenge that I faced was the difference, especially cause I was young.
Curt Steinhorst (18:42):
I still look relatively young. Although three kids quickly, I faced this, this gap of like audiences that were older, looking at a younger person and what was required of me to create credibility and to have precision was different than what someone who was had a large platform already had. And so I had a friend tell me that it would take me 20 times giving a similar speech before I perfect it. And I said, I'm a professional with this. I can affect curve by 18. And it turns out 20 was probably an understatement. It was just, this was a massive amount of effort and practice to actually deliver
Erik Averill (19:32):
the, and we know that we know this, I know this as a former professional athlete. I know this is a founder of company talking to other founders is there is no replacing hard work. I think you go back to that life hack conversation. You said in the very beginning, there are incredible tools that can help do certain things. But if, if craftsmanship and mastery truly is the goal, like it, you're just never going to develop the skillsets without the repetitions. Right. And it's a, we know this, it's not just the 10,000 hours. It's the, the effectiveness, the intentionality of those 10,000 hours as well. So it's, it's not only hard work, but I think there's this belief of you can, you can life hack success. And yeah, just, just very interesting. One of the things I want to stay on because you you've moved through this role of first, you were representing the talent to coaching the talent.
Erik Averill (20:37):
I'd become the talent, probably get some notoriety that it becomes full circle is these companies are hearing, you provide their, they start to go, wait a second. I want your information, but more actually wants your skillset to be able to communicate my company's message and my company's effectiveness or my, as the athlete, you know, we, as athletes have always been told, you have this huge platform, you should use it for influence, but they're professional athletes. We're not trained to, to speak and to even think in that way. And now there's this demand for your coaching? Like, is that something you still do? Is that something that's available? Because I, I have to imagine you get asked all the time.
Curt Steinhorst (21:22):
Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I wouldn't say that it's necessarily the best investment of my time from a dollars per hour standpoint, but the truth is it's one of my deepest passions. I love it. And so it will always be something that I prioritize. I just think there are a few things more, more meaningful than helping someone who has a story or has a message communicated in a way that actually creates change. And especially like the, the either virtual or in person that there's not many times you have a captive audience and, and, you know, so I, I just, I grew, it brings great joy. And frankly, I also just think it's, it's, it's, it's nearly impossible for people to, who have not been spent their life analyzing speech and rhetoric to, to be able or expected to communicate the stories that are most profound to the audience.
Curt Steinhorst (22:25):
And I even will say, even for my own story, we have no, there are two members on my team. That's the way they became on my team was because they were helping me. Because even though I do it for others, there's something really powerful about having someone else's voice to say that really knows what they're doing and what to look for to say that story is really compelling. Wait a minute, I think you missed the message there that like actually might've driven it for you. So yeah, I'm always very much committed to that as a central part of what I do.
Erik Averill (23:00):
So it was a question too, to a coach. One of the things I also realize in this information age are these books we read or this belief that simply awareness and consumption's going to lead to change. And we know that's not true. One of the most helpful books I've read lately in the last year or two was James Claire's atomic habits. That really helped me redefine the difference that it's not enough to just have goals. Everybody has the same goals. It's the implementation. Can you, can you talk about just, what are some of those foundational habits or mindset that has to happen when you're starting to work with someone to develop skill set on how to communicate?
Curt Steinhorst (23:47):
Yeah. Yeah. So, and it's interesting because the work I do is really in the two sides of attention. One is the self management. One is the communication side for the, the atomic habits, I guess on the communication side would be one, always starting with an awareness of your audience and like letting that be the starting point, number two would be just a relentless commitment to, to the practicing out loud of the ideas, because otherwise what happens is what absences you, you say it in your head a few times and then wonder why you think I'm going to speak from the heart. I'm like, I don't know if that's what you want people to think your heart saying, you know? And then I, you know, I think even deeper is, is really the commitment to, to doing the analysis and self assessment and critical posts and pre of like really what are the ideas that I'm trying to communicate that are most profound? Like, so there's this odd component of like, what is excellent speech and communication, except for connecting deeply with people, which means knowing yourself well and knowing being vulnerable with them and knowing what people need to hear. Right? So it's, there's this level of like, needing to just say, I'm going to create the space to process
Erik Averill (25:19):
you're, you're getting into, you're getting into people's, you know, uncomfortable spots right now talking about vulnerability. And I love it. It's, it's a challenge though. One thing I'd love to hear you open up. Cause what I'm hearing taking out of this is there's a big difference between thinking if I just develop a really great skill set at speaking, I can sell anything or convince people versus sharing a story. And there's still some ethos. Can you talk about maybe what are the limitations that founders or even athletes or people listening to this is it's like, I can go get all the coaching in the world, but if I don't have X, I'm not going to have success. And hopefully I'm asking the, you know, good question there.
Curt Steinhorst (26:06):
Yeah. I think there's a few traps people fall into, and one is there are, there are literally, there are habits. There are habits that we developed that are not effective when it comes to communication. So if, if, if you think that whatever your I'm going to just do it naturally, I have my own natural thing and it works. Then you're probably going to struggle. It's a process of improvement, right. You know, the difference than the athletes that are continued, longterm performers versus top athletes who fade as their career early in their career. Right. And, and so it's a recognition that there are actual, there are, there's a correct grip in golf and there's Billy Madison and Billy Madison only works in the movies. Right. It's so I think habits and related to that, I meant maybe this is the backing into it, but there is this incredible problem that occurs among those who've been successful in that's the somebody wants to see them and hear them.
Curt Steinhorst (27:10):
And you will never give a speech if you're, if they're like, if they're excited to meet you where they won't tell you. You're awesome. And that actually doesn't mean that they thought you were awesome or would recommend you. That means they just wanted to meet you. Right. And so what happens is you have people who hear like, Oh man, I'm a great speaker. I just speak from the heart. It's like, no, you're actually not. And, and, and what, when you, when you were at, you know, if you're a hall of Famer that just won the super bowl, a few trial and we won the super bowl, then maybe you can be terrible. But the fact is every step below that, whether you're pitching a product at a company now, which means you're competing with the overall market and investors, or you're now giving a presentation to tell, to inspire someone, you're competing with a ton of people and the quality of what you do will dictate how often that occurs and how successful you are.
Erik Averill (28:09):
Wow. Very, a few things to point out and dig into. Right? And I, we see this in the athlete community, one of the hardest things to do as you become more successful. And whether this is true as a CEO, a founder, an athlete, the minute you start to have notoriety and people can attach social currency to you, that if I'm associated with you, I'm, I'm somehow more important. They stop actually providing objective feedback. And it's really this unfortunate thing. And that's why we have to fight so hard to have deep, authentic, real relationships where, you know, I don't need everybody's opinion, but people that know me intimately and trust me over the longterm, I should provide them the permission to provide this feedback because I see it all the time, you know, in the athlete community, it's everybody knows what needs to be said, but nobody says it and the athlete goes on and then the career's over and they sit there and go, why didn't anybody tell me? You know? And so I just, I'd love to hear your thoughts of, as you've worked for yourself and then been surrounded by very successful, you know, CEOs or athletes or people like, what advice do you give them of the advisors they put around themselves? The friends I love to hear, hear, hear that thought.
Curt Steinhorst (29:35):
Yeah. You know, there's places I feel, I feel really are within my knowledge base. And then those that are outside of it, where, what I've said to a number of athletes. Cause I, the first, when I first started my business, incidentally, it ended up being that I worked with more athletes than anyone else. So I still do. And I had this moment and I won't say their name, but I had a, what I thought was a really exciting client. And we scheduled a meeting and he stood me up and then he didn't respond to me at all for a long time. And then all of a sudden reached out and I met up with him and he like gave me a big hug. And he, he didn't even, not only did he not apologize, I, it became clear to me. Like he didn't even know that he did anything wrong.
Curt Steinhorst (30:28):
And I, I had this recognition or this realization that he was Lexi, the hottest person in school where no matter what they do, people still want to date them and then they don't understand. And so the, the main thing I would say is like, making sure that you understand that the expectations of cordiality and like managing your basic stuff are really critical and having people in place to help. And so that's kind of part one and then, cause I can't help, but ramble. And I've thought of like the other area that I see these challenges is I I've experienced with that person. I learned. And I've learned this since that I think one of the biggest gaps or challenges that many smart, extremely kind ambitious well-intended highly successful athletes transitioning out struggle with is that they have, they have experienced the benefits of, of, of systems and a support network of coaches to really manage what once that is over.
Curt Steinhorst (31:48):
Everyone else has to self-manage. Yes. And, and, and that's just the reality. What that allowed was that you didn't have to focus on it. So you could focus more on becoming a peak performer. But now that you leave, I would say, what advisors do I have that are helping me become self able to self manage the blocking and tackling that is required for success. Calendars, responding on time, writing things down and having a method for cataloging information improvement, because there's just not going to be a coach that you don't have. You can't no one can afford to have the system when the revenue doesn't perfectly align with it, which it's hard for it to match what happens in sports, man, that is so powerful. It is as an athlete who had
Erik Averill (32:40):
to transition. I mean, that is, it's so true, right? And the year athlete card will get you in the door. But when you're in the, when you're in the business world, there are expectations. There are, they, they love to have you on board, as long as you're contributing to the team. You know, it's one of the things that we love, the analogy here. It's like, it's the New York Yankees, right? At some point, Derek Jeter was the mainstay shortstop for years and years and years. And then all of a sudden his skillset, even though he's still Derek Jeter, you know, it deteriorated right because of age and they replaced him and that's not, that's not cruel. It's not mean it's just, you're expected to perform in whatever venue or Avenue you're in. And so having those skill sets of self-management are yeah. So critical. And so key.
Erik Averill (33:29):
I love that one thing. And this might transition a little bit is another thing that I see right, is we, and I use very softly perceived success in this world, in the business world, there becomes more demand on your time. And as you have more success, it seems like, Oh, you have more capacity. Let's fill it up. And now let's overflow it that you can start to get lost in. Where should my attention be? And this is going to bring it really more into the personal family life conversation is you can be so good at managing your success in the business world that you stop paying attention on the personal side and almost believe this lie of, but don't, you know, how important I am. I was just managing that with kids and wives. And I know that this is something, everybody on this podcast deals with, whether we talk about it or not like, what, how have you navigated that? What what's the, you know, what's that balanced life. That's a myth.
Curt Steinhorst (34:49):
Yeah. Yeah, that's right. I think that we always want to start there and just ask the question is what we're aiming towards realistic. And should we feel guilty for what we for, for expectations that may not align with what is possible? We're in this weird moment where we're expected to be the best boss and the best boss means that we're the coach, the mentor, the task manager, the subject matter expert, the counselor, right. Then we're expected to be the best, you know, personally, meaning we need to be in CrossFit and do the Merv every day, twice a day, if you're really committed, you know what I mean? And then we need to be the best member of our few of these. We need to be the best parent, which means make sure they have all the best technology or no technology. It's like, it's just, it's never ending.
Curt Steinhorst (35:42):
And, and it all is built on this idea that we're unlimited. And it's also built on this idea that you only have two communities, you have a home community and a work community. You gotta balance something. That's that stopped being true 30 years ago. And it's gotten really untrue with the rise of the smartphone, where we connect with, with different communities, we're juggling dozens of different affiliations. And, and, and so the, the really the key principle that I always want to share, especially on this side of coaching or when we do like, we're, we're, we're doing we've, we've created called the focus fit challenge. It's a four week virtual program for teams. Nike's piloting it. And, and so it's quick and it's how do we become focused fit is I always want my vote, no one benefits from your partial attention. And so divide your time, not your attention.
Curt Steinhorst (36:37):
And, and that just means I don't need to feel guilty that I'm not, I don't need to feel guilty that I'm working more hours. In fact, that just means maybe I have a wonderful job. What I need to feel guilty on is if no one ever gets, if, if they, if they matter to me, if it's a community or an individual that matters to me, there better be a time when they get my full attention. And so my practices are all built around. That is like five to seven. When I'm in town, I don't have my phone with me and my kids get my full attention. It doesn't mean I have an Apple watch in case there's an emergency, but I hate texting on it. So I don't. And then, you know, within, I talked to my wife when we put the kids to bed and then I often will jump back on it and work in the evenings. Like it's just a, it's the same time it worked. My family knows that they get all of me at certain hours. And so that means they don't get any of me certain hours. And so I can actually be fully devoted and fully focused in a single sphere of life
Erik Averill (37:35):
that, that resonates it's convicting. And I also think it's very helpful for this audience in this community, because at times I feel like we, as a community of people that have a deep sense of calling or conviction for what we're building or what we're doing, or is the athlete is a lot of times I think we can get ostracizes workaholics. And there is a tribe of us that are like, you know what? I just really liked what I do. And I, I believe we're built to work and to, to manage and to do these things. So giving the freedom to say, Hey, you don't have to feel guilty that you are wired to build into do these things, but also the discernment in the conviction of divide your time, not your attention, like be fully present wherever you're at. That is, that is very, very helpful.
Erik Averill (38:28):
This is more pointed and very selfish, I would say because it's something that my brother and I, who's also my co founder struggle with inside our own company. So I feel like any founder listening to this, or really even a VC investor who, who has, is a part of a company, is how do you give your full focus, working within a team at a company? And what I mean by that, as I love, love your book, you talk a lot about this vault, right. Of this like specific, dedicated time for deep work. But how do you manage that when you also have people that are relying on you that feel like I can't move my work forward because you know, Eric's locked off in his vault. I know this is probably a common question, but I'd love for you to share. How do you stay focused at work inside of a team?
Curt Steinhorst (39:22):
Yeah, well, I think there's some built in assumptions there and we see one cost and we don't see the other. And so, yes, when I need something from someone and they're not available, that can be painful. But when we create a culture that rewards responsiveness as our highest responsibility, what we've just done is set a standard of interruption and an impossibility of focused work, which is where quality occurs, strategy, prioritization, efficiency. And so I would just say, let's consider the different cost. And then from there, it's all about, I call it an attention Alliance. It's, it's sitting down with our team and setting ground rules. And so, you know, Hey, this is an indicator that I'm not available, or this is when we're all gonna do vaults. We're all gonna do it. We're going to be in a 45 minutes sprint where no one has access to two times a day or three times, whatever those terms are.
Curt Steinhorst (40:18):
As long as people know in advance, this is me being unavailable. Then they can shift their workflow to where it can actually benefit you. And then the fact of the matter is the fact that we're accessible to everyone all the time, just lowers the bar of what we share with people. You know, it's like, Oh, I have a question. Well, great. Or you could have just looked that up on the calendar. You already knew that. Like, so just by making yourself slightly less available, you are actually creating a filter. So that the stuff that doesn't matter is less likely to get to you.
Erik Averill (40:57):
Powerful. I mean, it's interesting. I'm convicted to the sense of, and I know a bunch of sports agents listened to this podcast and my heart bleeds for them in this situation that unfortunately, a lot of the athlete community is doubled down on, on accessible 24 hours, seven days a week. But on what I just heard from you is like, you're actually hiring them for their expertise and they can't do their deep work. They can't actually innovate. They cannot strategize at their, their full capacity, which is really the value because they're attached to their phone and at all times, so that that's sick for convicting.
Curt Steinhorst (41:36):
Well, and I'll tell you, having, I worked less with, I haven't had as active relationship with sports agents in a few years, but gosh, I meetings it's like sit down and have lunch with them. And five calls would be the minimum and it looked, there was compassion, not this isn't me like being mad swings on their phone. Here's what I would argue. And I'd love to actually work with a group if they'd be willing to test this hypothesis in a world where the standard is that there, there could be an incredible competitive advantage by positioning yourself as someone who doesn't act that way. And doesn't do it for these reasons, for their good, and because they care about family or whatever it is like there's an option opportunity to actually leverage a different way of working and consider that a value proposition.
Erik Averill (42:29):
Yeah. It's a, I can think of, I can think of one sports agent who actually does that insanely, well, I don't want to mention his name because he, you know, he's, I mean, it's Scott Boris, right? Like on the baseball side, it's, it's, he can be the villain in so many ways, but I can tell you his whole thing is, is I'm your baseball attorney. I'm not your friend. The best thing you want me to do is not hang out with you. It's it's to get you the best contract. And, and it seems like, you know, it's, it's the risk though, of if I've, if I haven't operated this way, am I going to lose business? Am I going to lose these things? And so I, I love that, that challenge to do that a question sticking on competitive advantage, one of the byproducts of you being a, an expert or focusing on attention and studying the human, the way in which humans are developed is I would love for you to give advice to a lot of these startup companies and these technology companies that are, they're ultimately vying for attention. This is what we're doing, right? It's it's, information's entertainment now, what are people gonna pay a premium for? Like, if you were developing a product, I heard you riff two years ago of why Snapchat was a dying thing and why Facebook and Instagram, because they've archived, like our life memories are sticky. I would just, you know, not that you're a business consultant or an investment advisor here, but if, if founders are listening and their job is to grab eyeballs and attention, like, what would you tell them?
Curt Steinhorst (44:11):
Yeah. I mean, obviously these things are con complex. I, I served as a consultant for a large, well known smart device, but really they were, they did appliances home appliances and they were really excited about like pitching it at whatever, the big annual conferences and in January that I attended and helped speak on behalf of, and, you know, they were talking about, Oh, anytime your laundry's done, it'll send you a text. There's going to be a screen over your, over your oven where you can watch Netflix. And, and then I, you know, I asked, okay, so tell me about adoption rates for these smart appliances. It's like 11%, like no one's using it. I just think that as a general rule of thumb, we, we are seeing those in technology continue to, to create products that utterly failed, to recognize where people feel their constraints.
Curt Steinhorst (45:12):
And, you know, there is a need, a continued need for more convenience, easier, faster, every step is removed, but that's only so that they have space to devote their full attention to things that do matter. And when we're in, when it takes a ton of attention to learn it, or when it actually offers just more distraction and noise and entertainment or interruption, I think what you're going to see is lower adoption. And so my, my whole, I guess I would say kind of the lens that I always look through with this stuff is, is, are you aligned with the consumer longterm in terms of wanting to preserve and reinforce what matters most, or are you stealing from them? And you can win in the short term with that, and maybe I'm wrong on certain places. There's certain biological things that make humans like new shiny objects and negative ways. I, I do. I feel very strongly, very strongly that we're at the equivalent of the health food movement, where when we were kids, we ate cereal with sugar and McDonald's, and then eventually people react to technology and say, they want to, their humanity is too important. And so whatever technologies that you're doing that will help help them in that Bree taking control, I think will have significant value.
Erik Averill (46:37):
Very helpful. What one thing you had made a mention of previously was that a social connection drives what we pay attention to. What is, what do you mean by that? And I think this is like right in that vein is, is building out products and services of that capture attention. What did you mean by, by that social connection drives what we pay attention to?
Curt Steinhorst (47:02):
Yeah. So one of the things people think about when I think of focus is they make it an individual thing. I got to get more focused. I got to change my habits, but, but we've never made decisions about what deserves attention. Attention is given to what matters. And we make that assessment primarily through those that we trust and what other people pay attention to that's, it's called joint attention or social attention. And, you know, when a baby is born, we attack a baby's attach right to the primary caregivers. And they enter into joint attention where they, everything in the world is new and they make sense of the world by seeing what their primary caregivers pay attention to. This is why Disney commissioned a study to see what kids paid attention to when they walked into their theme parks. And the number one answer was their parents' smartphone.
Curt Steinhorst (47:54):
And that make you feel good. Glad we spend hundreds of dollars for tickets for our kids. Smartphone, think about kids, see what, what matters. Like we're always looking like we walk out and we, you know, if I'm walking out and I see a bunch of people staring that way, they must be seeing something that matters. I, I study better in a library where other people are studying because they're roughly affirming what matters. And so we need other people to help us know what matters. They're there. They are our filtering mechanism. Unfortunately, with technology, when Twitter becomes our, our, the algorithms become our filtering mechanism based on an inflammatory emotions, rather than trust that the people that the people who we trust to help us know what matters, aren't necessarily the ones who we sees their tweets and their posts most frequently. And so what we have this distortion of who we actually want to use versus who is directing our attention. Wow.
Erik Averill (49:02):
Very powerful. Would you say then it, could I make the connection of how important environment is on focus? You had, you know, you'd made the comment that it's it's I studied better in a library cause other people are studying, like, is this working in the coffee shop thing, like adding to our distraction. And I know I don't want to like attack coffee shops. I think it's just more a question of like places having a purpose and environment. How does that interact the way in which we pay attention?
Curt Steinhorst (49:36):
Yeah. The largest neural connection between short and longterm memory of spatial where we are. And so space is, I mean, as we think about it as like, what gets our attention, what we see, if I can tell you how long the girl scout cookies lasts, depending on where they are put in my house, you put them on the day, right. In the pantry the last week. And so, yeah. Space is really powerful. I think what's interesting is we weren't really wired. We're curious beings, right. To sit in the same spot all day long. And so we want, there's one thing, like if you're working virtually having a dedicated, separated office is really powerful, but in a perfect world, like we get bored in the same spot seeing the same thing. And so I think there's real power in saying like, how do we, how do we move based on the type of work, like a coffee shop is a really great place to certain types of work done. Cause a subtle amount of background noise can help us and plugging in headphones and just having that subtle background. Now it's not a great place if all our friends work there.
Erik Averill (50:38):
Okay. That's yeah, that resonates. I think it goes back to your vault concept and I, for everybody listening this Kurt's book, can I have your attention is this is not a shameless plug. Like this is you're asking for practical advice. It is filled with this type of information of how to set up your vault, how to set up where you're working and where you're doing certain things in super practical. So that was more of not even a plug for you, but more of just a thank you because it's really challenged. I guess I had never stopped to ask basic questions of like, what type of work am I doing and what type of attention and focus does it demand? Like I had never even thought about the fact of the reason I can listen to a podcast while vacuuming is okay, but listening to a podcast when I'm trying to do something very technical is distracting so that, you know, it was, it's been super helpful. So thank you very much.
Curt Steinhorst (51:38):
Cool. Well, thanks. Very, you know, I hadn't thought about this, but hi, I'm happy to the vault chapter in particular, I can give people a link if they just want that check chapter, which is specifically about how do they set up their space to make sure distractions were reduced. And, and so the there's a length that we use for this. It's kind of a private link, but I would love to do it for you guys. It's just focus wise.com forward slash so focus wise.com is our company and then forward slash C I H Y a. So can I have your attention [inaudible] and you can, you can download just the vault chapter, but that'd be hopefully something that people yeah,
Erik Averill (52:20):
thank you. Very, very generous. And I'll make sure to put that in the show notes and just being sensitive where I know that attention is the new currency, not necessarily time, but you've given us a tremendous amount of tension and, and I know a ton of value, so thank you so much. So the last thing I would really ask is we started this whole conversation in and focus is actually just a means to an end of, of what matters most right. And, and how do we, how do we live? Life's full of meaning and purpose. I would just ask, you know, it's something I ask every person is to say, how do you define what matters most? And I know that's a very complex and vague question, but I would just love to hear you rift on that. Cause a lot of times we get some of the best answers, just a letting you talk about how you would define what matters most for, for Kurt Stein, horse.
Curt Steinhorst (53:20):
Yeah, man, that is a, that is a really challenging, but poignant and critical question. Isn't it for all of us. I, when I tactically think about that question, because it is one that I use as a filter, I, I think about it in the context of what matters most for me physically. So I have a physical component. What matters most for me spiritually, what matters most for me intellectually. Right. And then what matters most for me relationally are kind of the areas that I look at. Oh yeah. I forgot basically professionally. And so I have only routine that I really set intentions around each one of those. And so I, I think we're complex. And, and, and so it's hard to say like a single thing. There's a first among equals I for, for me, I'm a person of faith. And I think that the, the relationship you have to, to the bigger story and it is the fundamental piece that helps make sense of everything else.
Curt Steinhorst (54:26):
Because if you don't have a greater story or an understanding of how things fit together, it can be really challenging. And so my faith is number one, but it's also what drives care across. Have, you know, my family being what matters and in my business. And, you know, I'll end by just saying, I think people, the safe and easy answer is to say, well, my family matters most and they do, but I had a really a mentor that said, you know, Kurt your whole, your whole life. Isn't just to have someone else like to start the next generation for their whole life to just care about the next generation like your work matters. And so I still know guilt giving devoting real focused effort and time to that sphere of life, because I think it's models for my kids that the work and meaning has to occur through the difference you make in the world.
Erik Averill (55:21):
Very powerful. And I know that you got a lot of amens from, from the audience, right? I think it resonates with so many of us that unfortunately we want to pit work versus family. When in reality, we're designed as a holistic person, a design to, to create and to be in relationship and, and hopefully enjoy a very good creation together through that, through the hard work and, and deeper relationships. So it, it resonates a lot. And Kurt, thank you so much for the audience. I will absolutely make sure to put that free link that Kurt was so gracious to, to share with us. Also make sure that you put his email in and I'd highly encourage you. If you have questions, whether it's for your company, whether it's for speaking, of course, Kurt is in high demand as a keynote speaker, but something I actually didn't even know until talking to, to curb before this podcast is he still does coaching. It's something that I didn't realize. And so if there is a desire after this, please reach out to him. You can also go to focus wise.com and there is enough practical information to keep you busy for years that you can hone so many of your skills. And so Kurt, thank you so much for your, for your attention and for your value. This has been a blast. Thanks for having me on Eric. This has been a lot of fun for me as well.
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